OK you all must read this blog, http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=004251 Its not always Kosher but is awfully funny. and you might even learn something too at least about Johvah witnesses
after you are done reading though throughly check out this site http://www.oldlutheran.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=LB
Saturday, June 28, 2008
Friday, June 27, 2008
One Relgion
This is my reply to a reply to my original post. That which is true in my reply is God's and the errors are mine.
quote:
Firstly, there aren't different Christian religions. There is one Christian religion which happens to be made up of several different ways of approaching God. Secondly, there is Absolute Truth. My contention is simply that we will never know what it is while we see through a glass darkly. Thus it is indeed true that our perception of Truth changes and therefore truth can not be known absolutely by us.
How is it that there are not different Christian Religions? They all believe different things about Jesus and in fact they do not all agree even on what he said or even what books should be in the Bible. Now you can say this is all because we can not know truth clearly. However was that not one of the reasons the Christ came to redeem us. He did not have to spend 30 years here on earth, but one drop of his blood would have been sufficient. He spent 30 years to teach us how to get to heaven.I think that if you add up the sum total of all Christian beliefs and eliminate all those that contradict you would be left with nothing other than that Christ existed. From this one must conclude what you believe does not matter, that you just have to believe in Jesus to be saved. Yet even to say this is rejected by certain Christian religions. So if all Christian religions contain error. To belong to any one Christian denomination would not get you to heaven, and as all contradictions must be rejected, to accept one or the other contradiction would be to run the risk of offending God and to accept error. Also to simply believe in Jesus as sufficient is rejected by some Christian denominations and therefore must be rejected, as it too, is a contradiction. One must, therefore, completely reject Christianity as false.Yet I reject the idea that God would put us in such a predicament. God is both perfectly good and perfectly just. He must therefore have given us a clear road to heaven, and he also must have given us a clear authority as to what that road is. That road therefore must be the one Christian denomination that possesses the entire deposit of faith.
quote:
None of the Apostles are still alive now, it being 2000 years later and all.
This is obviously true; however they passed the Faith on to those that came after and so on down through the centuries. If then they had Christ's authority to teach, they must have also passed this on. It also means they must have agreed as to what was to be taught as true, and what was to be rejected as false. This authority must also have been passed down though the centuries so that a clear road to heaven could be seen.
quote:
That may have something to do with the fact that religion, unlike those other things, cannot be proved (or at least demonstrated with falsifiable evidence).
There are many aspects of beliefs concerning God that can be arrived at through reason without faith, though one may accept them on faith. This included the existence of God. This has been demonstrated by Aristotle, and has been expanded upon by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica. One may arrive sufficiently by reason to the point where, by the grace of God, one can accept on faith those things that cannot be known, or understood, through reason.
quote:
I don't see how that follows. "Christ is with us" does not translate to "we have no error" - look at all the times the disciples got things wrong in the Gospels! And they had Christ actually physically there, rather than the Spiritual Presence we have now!
Indeed the disciples did get things wrong during their training as Christ preached in his public life. But that cannot be said of them after the Pentecost, and least not when it came to teaching on faith and morals. They may have got things wrong on other things; they were still human. But on faith and morals they had the protection of the Holy Spirit. That must be so or what would the point be of Christ coming to teach us. If human nature's tendency to error was not in some way protected when it came to his Church.
I did not quote all of the remarks of Marvin the Martian to which I have responded however I think I have quoted the most pertinent ones.
Thank you Marvin for a well thought out and gracious reply.
quote:
Firstly, there aren't different Christian religions. There is one Christian religion which happens to be made up of several different ways of approaching God. Secondly, there is Absolute Truth. My contention is simply that we will never know what it is while we see through a glass darkly. Thus it is indeed true that our perception of Truth changes and therefore truth can not be known absolutely by us.
How is it that there are not different Christian Religions? They all believe different things about Jesus and in fact they do not all agree even on what he said or even what books should be in the Bible. Now you can say this is all because we can not know truth clearly. However was that not one of the reasons the Christ came to redeem us. He did not have to spend 30 years here on earth, but one drop of his blood would have been sufficient. He spent 30 years to teach us how to get to heaven.I think that if you add up the sum total of all Christian beliefs and eliminate all those that contradict you would be left with nothing other than that Christ existed. From this one must conclude what you believe does not matter, that you just have to believe in Jesus to be saved. Yet even to say this is rejected by certain Christian religions. So if all Christian religions contain error. To belong to any one Christian denomination would not get you to heaven, and as all contradictions must be rejected, to accept one or the other contradiction would be to run the risk of offending God and to accept error. Also to simply believe in Jesus as sufficient is rejected by some Christian denominations and therefore must be rejected, as it too, is a contradiction. One must, therefore, completely reject Christianity as false.Yet I reject the idea that God would put us in such a predicament. God is both perfectly good and perfectly just. He must therefore have given us a clear road to heaven, and he also must have given us a clear authority as to what that road is. That road therefore must be the one Christian denomination that possesses the entire deposit of faith.
quote:
None of the Apostles are still alive now, it being 2000 years later and all.
This is obviously true; however they passed the Faith on to those that came after and so on down through the centuries. If then they had Christ's authority to teach, they must have also passed this on. It also means they must have agreed as to what was to be taught as true, and what was to be rejected as false. This authority must also have been passed down though the centuries so that a clear road to heaven could be seen.
quote:
That may have something to do with the fact that religion, unlike those other things, cannot be proved (or at least demonstrated with falsifiable evidence).
There are many aspects of beliefs concerning God that can be arrived at through reason without faith, though one may accept them on faith. This included the existence of God. This has been demonstrated by Aristotle, and has been expanded upon by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica. One may arrive sufficiently by reason to the point where, by the grace of God, one can accept on faith those things that cannot be known, or understood, through reason.
quote:
I don't see how that follows. "Christ is with us" does not translate to "we have no error" - look at all the times the disciples got things wrong in the Gospels! And they had Christ actually physically there, rather than the Spiritual Presence we have now!
Indeed the disciples did get things wrong during their training as Christ preached in his public life. But that cannot be said of them after the Pentecost, and least not when it came to teaching on faith and morals. They may have got things wrong on other things; they were still human. But on faith and morals they had the protection of the Holy Spirit. That must be so or what would the point be of Christ coming to teach us. If human nature's tendency to error was not in some way protected when it came to his Church.
I did not quote all of the remarks of Marvin the Martian to which I have responded however I think I have quoted the most pertinent ones.
Thank you Marvin for a well thought out and gracious reply.
One relgion
THis post is a responce to my post below, above this I have placed my reply to the reply
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick:
I really must say that this entire discussion assumes several thing. firstly that God is OK with their being different religions. secondly that truth (a) changes and (b) therefore truth can not be know absolutely.
Firstly, there aren't different Christian religions. There is one Christian religion which happens to be made up of several different ways of approaching God.Secondly, there is Absolute Truth. My contention is simply that we will never know what it is while we see through a glass darkly. Thus it is indeed true that our perception of Truth changes and therefore truth can not be known absolutely by us.
I must ask who, an obvious question, started Christianity? I think you all would agree that Jesus Christ founded Christianity.If he founded Christianity then to whom did he give authority to teach that faith. Again I think that all would agree that he gave that authority to the Apostles.
None of the Apostles are still alive now, it being 2000 years later and all.
quote:
If (and i am not sure you will all agree with this) Christ is God the second person of the trinity (or lets just say or arguments purpose the Son of God for those of you who disagree with my first statement) and he founded only one church why are there so many different Christian Churches today.
Because we're human, we all have limited perceptions of what the Holy Spirit is saying to us, and when we disagree on things we can't ever seem to be civil about it and not let those disagreements get in the way of our basic unity.
quote:
Everyday you rely on truth not change in your everyday life, 2+2 must always equal 4, objects fall to the ground, the laws of physics must always apply ETC. For some reason this does not, in peoples mind, equate to Religion, morality, or Theology.
That may have something to do with the fact that religion, unlike those other things, cannot be proved (or at least demonstrated with falsifiable evidence). It's faith, and anyone who says their personal faith is 100% Truth and Certainty is, in my opinion, wrong.It follows that if there can be no certainty about faith, then there can be no judgement about who has or hasn't got it right.
quote:
I hear people say well that is what i believe and is therefor true to me. That is some crazy thinking there. Think what would happen if you applied that when you balanced your check book. If you and the bank did not agree on what to believe when it came to mathematics. I think you all would say that person was crazy.
Again, levels of proof.
quote:
There is also another reason truth can not change. That is due to the nature of God. God can not change. Why is that? Because for something to change it implies either an improvement or a decline. But God is perfection. Therefor for him to change would mean that he either was not perfect before or is no longer perfect now. I think we all would agree this is not the case.
Indeed. I'm not arguing that Absolute Truth cannot change, only that we cannot clearly percieve it.
quote:
Now God is the origin of all things. Therefor he is the origin of truth. If God is perfect truth then Truth can not change as its origin can not.If then you know that Christ was God ( or the son of God if you prefer) then he spoke the word of God. Now what does that mean today. Well there are hundreds of Christian Denominations. They all disagree what it is Christ asked us to do.
It's more like they disagree over what He meant when He said [whatever].
quote:
They all have different theology. But Christ only spoke one truth therefor since all Christian religions disagree then either all must contain at least some error or only one contains all of the truth.
All contain error. That's my position.
quote:
If all are in error then Christ was not speaking the truth when he said he would be with his Church always.
I don't see how that follows. "Christ is with us" does not translate to "we have no error" - look at all the times the disciples got things wrong in the Gospels! And they had Christ actually physically there, rather than the Spiritual Prescence we have now!
quote:
But if if you know that Christ spoke the word of God then you know that, God being perfection, He is not in error. Therefor there must be only one religion that contains all Truth that God wishes us to know. Of course assuming that you believe that God truly wishes us to be happy with him in Heaven and would therefor give us the means to go there.
There is only one religion which contains all the truth we need to know about God - Christianity! It's just that some of that truth is in the Orthodox church, some in the RCC, some in the Anglican Communion, some in the Baptists, some in the... ah, you get the point
quote:
Now if all this is true then the only way for there to be but one religion is for all men to join the church that contains all truth necessary to reach heaven.
Indeed - I would love to see the whole world believing in Christ. That's not the same as saying I'd love to see the whole world become members of one specific Christian denomination, of course!
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick:
I really must say that this entire discussion assumes several thing. firstly that God is OK with their being different religions. secondly that truth (a) changes and (b) therefore truth can not be know absolutely.
Firstly, there aren't different Christian religions. There is one Christian religion which happens to be made up of several different ways of approaching God.Secondly, there is Absolute Truth. My contention is simply that we will never know what it is while we see through a glass darkly. Thus it is indeed true that our perception of Truth changes and therefore truth can not be known absolutely by us.
I must ask who, an obvious question, started Christianity? I think you all would agree that Jesus Christ founded Christianity.If he founded Christianity then to whom did he give authority to teach that faith. Again I think that all would agree that he gave that authority to the Apostles.
None of the Apostles are still alive now, it being 2000 years later and all.
quote:
If (and i am not sure you will all agree with this) Christ is God the second person of the trinity (or lets just say or arguments purpose the Son of God for those of you who disagree with my first statement) and he founded only one church why are there so many different Christian Churches today.
Because we're human, we all have limited perceptions of what the Holy Spirit is saying to us, and when we disagree on things we can't ever seem to be civil about it and not let those disagreements get in the way of our basic unity.
quote:
Everyday you rely on truth not change in your everyday life, 2+2 must always equal 4, objects fall to the ground, the laws of physics must always apply ETC. For some reason this does not, in peoples mind, equate to Religion, morality, or Theology.
That may have something to do with the fact that religion, unlike those other things, cannot be proved (or at least demonstrated with falsifiable evidence). It's faith, and anyone who says their personal faith is 100% Truth and Certainty is, in my opinion, wrong.It follows that if there can be no certainty about faith, then there can be no judgement about who has or hasn't got it right.
quote:
I hear people say well that is what i believe and is therefor true to me. That is some crazy thinking there. Think what would happen if you applied that when you balanced your check book. If you and the bank did not agree on what to believe when it came to mathematics. I think you all would say that person was crazy.
Again, levels of proof.
quote:
There is also another reason truth can not change. That is due to the nature of God. God can not change. Why is that? Because for something to change it implies either an improvement or a decline. But God is perfection. Therefor for him to change would mean that he either was not perfect before or is no longer perfect now. I think we all would agree this is not the case.
Indeed. I'm not arguing that Absolute Truth cannot change, only that we cannot clearly percieve it.
quote:
Now God is the origin of all things. Therefor he is the origin of truth. If God is perfect truth then Truth can not change as its origin can not.If then you know that Christ was God ( or the son of God if you prefer) then he spoke the word of God. Now what does that mean today. Well there are hundreds of Christian Denominations. They all disagree what it is Christ asked us to do.
It's more like they disagree over what He meant when He said [whatever].
quote:
They all have different theology. But Christ only spoke one truth therefor since all Christian religions disagree then either all must contain at least some error or only one contains all of the truth.
All contain error. That's my position.
quote:
If all are in error then Christ was not speaking the truth when he said he would be with his Church always.
I don't see how that follows. "Christ is with us" does not translate to "we have no error" - look at all the times the disciples got things wrong in the Gospels! And they had Christ actually physically there, rather than the Spiritual Prescence we have now!
quote:
But if if you know that Christ spoke the word of God then you know that, God being perfection, He is not in error. Therefor there must be only one religion that contains all Truth that God wishes us to know. Of course assuming that you believe that God truly wishes us to be happy with him in Heaven and would therefor give us the means to go there.
There is only one religion which contains all the truth we need to know about God - Christianity! It's just that some of that truth is in the Orthodox church, some in the RCC, some in the Anglican Communion, some in the Baptists, some in the... ah, you get the point
quote:
Now if all this is true then the only way for there to be but one religion is for all men to join the church that contains all truth necessary to reach heaven.
Indeed - I would love to see the whole world believing in Christ. That's not the same as saying I'd love to see the whole world become members of one specific Christian denomination, of course!
Thursday, June 26, 2008
One Relgion
This is very off topic for my web site. But I write it in response to the ecumenists in and out if the Catholic church. What truth it contains is God's what errors it may contain are mine and I denounce them whole heartedly.
I really must say that this entire discussion assumes several thing. firstly that God is OK with their being different religions. Secondly that truth (a) changes and (b) therefore truth can not be know absolutely.
I must ask who, an obvious question, started Christianity? I think you all would agree that Jesus Christ founded Christianity. If he founded Christianity then to whom did he give authority to teach that faith. Again I think that all would agree that he gave that authority to the Apostles. Now in the Bible Christ promised to be with his church always. If (and i am not sure you will all agree with this) Christ is God the second person of the Trinity (or lets just say or arguments purpose the Son of God for those of you who disagree with my first statement) and he founded only one church why are there so many different Christian Churches today?
I have to say that the result really comes down to two things. Firstly a misunderstanding of the nature of truth (IE truth changes) and, therefor, secondly a misunderstanding of the nature of God. You rely on truth not to change in your everyday life, 2+2 must always equal 4, objects fall to the ground, the laws of physics must always apply ETC. For some reason this does not, in peoples mind, equate to Religion, morality, or Theology. I hear people say well that is what I believe and is therefor true to me. That is some crazy thinking there. Think what would happen if you applied that when you balanced your check book. If you and the bank did not agree on what to believe when it came to mathematics. I think you all would say that person was crazy.
There is also another reason truth can not change. That is due to the nature of God. God can not change. Why is that? Because for something to change it implies either an improvement or a decline. But God is perfection. Therefor for Him to change would mean that He either was not perfect before or is no longer perfect now. I think we all would agree this is not the case.
Now God is the origin of all things. Therefor He is the origin of truth. If God is perfect truth then Truth can not change as its origin can not. If then you know that Christ was God ( or the son of God if you prefer) then he spoke the word of God. Now what does that mean today. Well there are hundreds of Christian Denominations. They all disagree as to what it is Christ asked us to do. They all have different theology. But Christ only spoke one truth therefor since all Christian religions disagree then either all must contain at least some error or only one contains all of the truth. If all are in error then Christ was not speaking the truth when he said he would be with his Church always.
But if if you know that Christ spoke the word of God then you know that, God being perfection, He is not in error. Therefor there must be only one religion that contains all Truth that God wishes us to know. Of course assuming that you believe that God truly wishes us to be happy with him in Heaven and would therefor give us the means to go there. Now if all this is true then the only way for there to be but one religion is for all men to join the church that contains all truth necessary to reach heaven.
I really must say that this entire discussion assumes several thing. firstly that God is OK with their being different religions. Secondly that truth (a) changes and (b) therefore truth can not be know absolutely.
I must ask who, an obvious question, started Christianity? I think you all would agree that Jesus Christ founded Christianity. If he founded Christianity then to whom did he give authority to teach that faith. Again I think that all would agree that he gave that authority to the Apostles. Now in the Bible Christ promised to be with his church always. If (and i am not sure you will all agree with this) Christ is God the second person of the Trinity (or lets just say or arguments purpose the Son of God for those of you who disagree with my first statement) and he founded only one church why are there so many different Christian Churches today?
I have to say that the result really comes down to two things. Firstly a misunderstanding of the nature of truth (IE truth changes) and, therefor, secondly a misunderstanding of the nature of God. You rely on truth not to change in your everyday life, 2+2 must always equal 4, objects fall to the ground, the laws of physics must always apply ETC. For some reason this does not, in peoples mind, equate to Religion, morality, or Theology. I hear people say well that is what I believe and is therefor true to me. That is some crazy thinking there. Think what would happen if you applied that when you balanced your check book. If you and the bank did not agree on what to believe when it came to mathematics. I think you all would say that person was crazy.
There is also another reason truth can not change. That is due to the nature of God. God can not change. Why is that? Because for something to change it implies either an improvement or a decline. But God is perfection. Therefor for Him to change would mean that He either was not perfect before or is no longer perfect now. I think we all would agree this is not the case.
Now God is the origin of all things. Therefor He is the origin of truth. If God is perfect truth then Truth can not change as its origin can not. If then you know that Christ was God ( or the son of God if you prefer) then he spoke the word of God. Now what does that mean today. Well there are hundreds of Christian Denominations. They all disagree as to what it is Christ asked us to do. They all have different theology. But Christ only spoke one truth therefor since all Christian religions disagree then either all must contain at least some error or only one contains all of the truth. If all are in error then Christ was not speaking the truth when he said he would be with his Church always.
But if if you know that Christ spoke the word of God then you know that, God being perfection, He is not in error. Therefor there must be only one religion that contains all Truth that God wishes us to know. Of course assuming that you believe that God truly wishes us to be happy with him in Heaven and would therefor give us the means to go there. Now if all this is true then the only way for there to be but one religion is for all men to join the church that contains all truth necessary to reach heaven.
Sunday, June 1, 2008
MN GOP CONVETION
Mn Gop Convention,
I am in the back round while the guy is getting interviewed, as well as Ron Paul
I am in the back round while the guy is getting interviewed, as well as Ron Paul
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